The Olivet Discourse on Grace Forums.doc
[quote=Justin]
It should be noted that the NIV has “Race” as an alternate translation for “Generation.” However, due to the many references of “This generation” in GoMatthew referring to the generation then alive, and the (TTBOMK) utter lack of any other source using genea for “race,” I have severe doubts fo this alternate translation.)
[/quote]
[quote=PastorKen]
…Being as the “this generation…” statement is followed just 2 verses later by the statement that, at least at this time, even the “Son of Man” (that would be Jesus) does not know the timing of His second coming, it seems highly unlikely to me that “this generation” is a reference to the generation of the apostles. Given the context (that he was describing the events of the “Great Tribulation” it seems fairly certain that He was using the term “this generation” as a reference that is seeing the events of the great tribulation taking place in order to emphasis his statement in the previous sentence that the “end of age” would be “near—at the doors.”
[/quote]
Pastor Ken,
I agree…
Verily I say unto you,
This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled.
(Matthew xxiv:34 KJVR)
_______________________________________________________
ἀμὴν
[1] λέγω
[2] ὑμῖν
[3],
οὐ
[4] μὴ
[5] παρέλθῃ
[6] ἡ
[7]γενεα
[8]̀ αὕτη
[9] ἕως
[10]ἂν
[11] πάντα
[12] ταῦτα
[13] γένηται
[14].
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I tell you the truth,
this generation
[15]will certainly not pass away
until all these things have happened.
(Matthew xxiv:34 NIV)
**********************
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν
ὅτι οὐ μὴ
παρέλθῃ ἡ γενεὰ
αὕτη μέχρις οὗ
πάντα ταῦτα γένηται.
Mark xiii:30
***********************
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν
ὅτι οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ
ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη ἕως
ἂν πάντα γένηται.
Luk 21:32
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I must say, if you followed my footnoting of the Greek (I only posted the translation of the Greek for the passage in Matthew but I did provide the Greek for Mark xiii:30 and Luke xxi:32 and you will see that they use the identical wording in Greek), that I concur with Adam Clarke
[16] for he writes:
[17]“γενεα αυτη, this race; i.e. the Jews shall not cease from being a distinct people, till all the counsels of God relative to them and the Gentiles be fulfilled. Some translate γενεα αυτη, this generation, meaning the persons who were then living, that they should not die before these signs, etc., took place: but though this was true, as to the calamities that fell upon the Jews, and the destruction of their government, temple, etc., yet as our Lord mentions Jerusalem’s continuing to be under the power of the Gentiles till the fullness of the Gentiles should come in, i.e. till all the nations of the world should receive the Gospel of Christ, after which the Jews themselves should be converted unto God, Romans xi:25, &c., I think it more proper not to restrain its meaning to the few years which preceded the destruction of Jerusalem; but to understand it of the care taken by Divine providence to preserve them as a distinct people, and yet to keep them out of their own land, and from their temple service. But still it is literally true in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. John probably lived to see these things come to pass; compare Matthew xvi:28, with John xxi:22; and there were some rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these words who lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city; R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it; R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others. …
γενεα αυτη : This very race of men. It is certain that this word has two meanings in the Scriptures; that given in the text, and that above. Generation signifies a period of a certain number of years, sometimes more, sometimes less. In Deuteronomy i:35; Deuteronomy ii:14, Moses uses the word to point out a term of thirty-eight years, which was precisely the number in the present case; for Jerusalem was destroyed about thirty-eight years after our Lord delivered this prediction. But as there are other events in this chapter, which certainly look beyond the destruction of Jerusalem, and which were to take place before the Jews should cease to be a distinct people…
[18]The war began, as Josephus says
[19], in the second year of the government of Gessius Florus, who succeeded Albinus, successor of Porcius Festus, mentioned Acts xxiv:27, in the month of May, in the twelfth year of Nero, and the seventeenth of Agrippa, mentioned Acts xxv and xxvi, that is, in May, a.d. 66.
The temple was burnt August 10, a.d. 70, the same day and month on which it had been burnt by the king of Babylon
[20].
The city was taken September 8, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, or the year of Christ 70
[21].
That was the end of the siege of Jerusalem, which began, as Josephus several times observes, about the fourteenth day of the month Nisan, or our April. …”
[22]So we should become conscious that this is not the generation of just a few men—the men who lived at that time—but the generation of mankind as a whole, i.e.: the race of mankind. We need to realize that the race of man should not come to a close, until the execution of all of these things that Jesus foretold in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke actually happen.
Thus, it is therefore proved that this passage refers to the last days as well as the position of the Jews at that time. Just as with all other parts of God’s Word, we must both use them literally and symbolically for the passages do contain the mystery, the mystery that eludes us. This is the very reason that Jesus taught in parables, remember?
The events of the time past since the Lord uttered it confirm this thought. Neither in 1260 days, nor in 1260 years, after the days of Titus, neither in 38 days or 38 years after, did any event take place which could be the completion of the days spoken about in Daniel. Those periods are gone by many, many years ago now.
While Israel has been reunited in her homeland, She has not yet been delivered. Nor has Daniel stood in his lot at the end of days. So, we are all ‘standing by’ and waiting, but we should not be idle, but productive for the LORD.
[quote=NE Trips]
…Clearly some of the disciples themselves misunderstood this point. In the earliest knows Christian document, the First Epistle to the Thessalonians, Paul seems to envisage that he and the Christians he was writing to would see the resurrection of the dead within their own lifetimes…
[/quote]
I remind thee, that we (along with Paul and the other disciples) have an everlasting, eternal life now that we are true Children of God, and we will indeed “see” the resurrection of the dead during our (now) eternal, everlasting life. It’s all in perspective, and my perspective does not end at the earthly grave but that our mortal death is just the beginning of our wonderful lives in Heaven with Jesus.
Pastor Ken… I learned a lot from your discussion of which tree that you loved (January 3, 2007 post), while leaning against a tree and describing the tree in your backyard… It was a very enlightening parable in its self.
And also, the fact that three questions were indeed asked and three questions were indeed answered, it is most reasonable to separate questions and answers in the proper context.
I am your brother in Christ, a child of God,
Russ
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[1] ἀμὴν (amēn / am-ane') A word of Hebrew origin; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy; I speak the truth; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, truly, verily.
[2] λέγω (legō / leg'-o) A primary verb; properly to “lay” forth, that is, (figuratively) relate (in words usually by using a systematic discourse; whereas ἔπω (epō / ep'-o) and φημί (phēmi / fay-mee') generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while ῥέω (rheō / hreh'-o) is properly to break silence merely, and λαλέω (laleō / lal-eh'-o) means to lecture earnestly and at length. Λέγω, here by implication, is to mean: - describe, give out, name, put forth, say (-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter. Compare with Λόγος (logos / log'-os) which is something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
[3] ὑμῖν (humin / hoo-min') Irregular dative case of ὑμείς (humeis hoo-mice'); to (with or by) you: - ye, you, your (-selves).
[4] Ου (ou / oo) Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ (ouch ookh) before an aspirate. Ου is A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare μή (mē / may) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also οὐ; μή (ou; mē / oo; may) as well as μῆκος (mēkos / may'-kos).
[5] μὴ ́ (mē / may) A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas οὐ (ou / oo) expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogative implying a negative answer [whereas οὐ expects an affirmative one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations.
[6] παρέλθῃ (parerchomai / par-er'-khom-ahee) From παρά (para / par-ah') and ἔρχομαι (erchomai / er'-khom-ahee) to come near or aside, that is, to approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causatively) avert: - come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.
[7] ἡ (hē / hay) In feminine form, the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
[8] γενεά (genea / ghen-eh-ah') Is from a derivative of γένος (genos / ghen'-os) which means a generation by implication a period of the persons (in OT times 100 years, in the NT 40 years and in more modern times 20 years) or the “kin” it can do this either abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively. In this manner γένος can mean an age, a generation, a nation, or a much longer period of time. It can be used metaphorically to mean a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits and in character especially in a bad sense such as a perverse nation. γένος may also be used to signify the men of an age or time, as contemporaries and in this usage. γενεα may also mean the race of man as translated by the NIV, especially when taken with γένηται, which is the last word in this verse, (ginomai / ghin'-om-ahee) which gives us cause to take a further look into the proper meaning of γένος as it will come to pass, as in a future tense, not necessarily in a shorter span of time; such as in an age of time not as a measure of merely a lifetime during the first century.
[9] αὕτη (hautē / how'-tay) the he (she or it), that is, this or that (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
[10] ἕως (heōs / heh'-oce) Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).
[11] ἄν (an / an) A primary particle, denoting a supposition, wish, possibility or uncertainty: - [what-, where-, whither-, who-]soever. Usually unexpressed except by the subjunctive or potential mood.
[12] πᾶς (pas / pas) Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
[13] ταῦτα (tauta / tow'-tah) Nomitive or these things: - + afterward, follow, + hereafter, X him, the same, so, such, that, then, these, they, this, those, thus.
[14] γένηται (ginomai / ghin'-om-ahee) A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
[15] Or race
[16] Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Clarke Adam Clarke (
1760 or
1762–
1832) who was a British Methodist theologian and Biblical scholar. He is chiefly remembered for writing a commentary on the Bible which took him forty years to complete and which was a primary Methodist theological resource for two centuries
[17] (Shock as Russ agrees with a non-Calvinist, but this only goes to prove that I listen to what each man has to say and not how he is particularly aligned)
[18] From Adam Clark’s discussion on Mark xiii:30
[19] Josephus Ant. b. xx. c. 11. s. 1
[20] op cit. Ant. b. xx. c. 11. s. 8
[21] op. cit. Ant. b. vi. c. 10
[22] Adam Clarke Commentary on the Bible via e-sword.